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The Mitsubishi Pajero Owners Club® The Mitsubishi Pajero, Shogun, Montero, Challenger, Raider and EVO 4x4 Owner's Club
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aer Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:57 Post subject: EGR Valve Blanking |
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I have just blanked the EGR Valve on my 1994 2.8TD SWB Paj with a club blanking plate and I thought I should let you all know my experience. The job took about 15 mins and the car has been transformed! It is now so much more responsive, both from a standing start and when on the motorway. I can't recommend it enough!
Adrian Roberts |
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:57 Post subject: Google Ads keep the POCUK free to join! |
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PG Scooby LifeTime Member
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 884 Location: Eastbourne, 'Suntrap of the South' & final resting place for the many!!!
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:24 Post subject: |
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TBH this is more of a post for the 'Newbie' section because this has been covered so many times in the past.
Did you try cleaning the valve first?
Just bear in mind you are now making the engine run at a higher temperature, the EGR is there to reduce just that.
But if you know better than Mitsubishi............................................ |
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aer Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:26 Post subject: |
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Oops, sorry about the choice of forum. I know that blanking the EGR Valve can result in an occasional higher temperature, but the fact that this mod is sanctioned by the club does suggest that it is OK. Also, as far as I can ascertain, the valve is to reduce emmissions for the Japanese test and the temperature reduction is a by-product of that. Is that not the case? |
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ahalton ******
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 2268 Location: ..........
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 13:38 Post subject: EGR |
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I don't think Simon offers a warranty for the engine running hot and melting the tips of the injectors.
A disclaimer in the club shop should really be there.
Andrew |
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PoCUK Site Admin
Age: 60 Zodiac: Joined: 09 Oct 2002 Posts: 3749 Location: S/W New Forest Border
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 13:43 Post subject: |
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aer wrote: |
Oops, sorry about the choice of forum. |
np ... a common mistake
aer wrote: |
I know that blanking the EGR Valve can result in an occasional higher temperature, but the fact that this mod is sanctioned by the club does suggest that it is OK. |
As a club, we don't endorse the blanking plates, but there is a LOT of supporting information out there that suggests that there is NO problem blanking an EGR valve, in particular, that blanking the EGR valve will NOT directly lead to any engine component failure.
However, if you already have an engine that exhibits symptoms suggesting that the solution could be to blank the EGR valve, I can safely say that ANY problems with the engine / cylinder head are likely to already exist and fitting a blanking plate will NOT reduce the time to failure.
aer wrote: |
Also, as far as I can ascertain, the valve is to reduce emmissions for the Japanese test and the temperature reduction is a by-product of that. Is that not the case? |
Absolutely ... a genuine mis-conception is that the EGR valve exists to protect the engine from heat ... that's NOT why it's used otherwise, why don't ALL UK diesels have one fitted
This has become an 'old chestnut' now, but I'm sure it will continue to do the rounds ...
The purpose of the EGR valve, as already detailed in many posts, is to keep the NOx emissions down - the Japanese 'home market' cars all have them as the NOx emissions are more tightly monitored with regard to emissions control in Japan than they are here in the UK.
The higher the temperature within the cylinders (to a degree ... no pun intended!) the higher the NOx pollutants ... the EGR valve allows some of the exhaust gas back into the cylynders under certain conditions (normally peak load) to retard the 'burn' (it suffocates the diesel/air mix) which, in theory, VERY slightly lowers the temperature IN ORDER TO reduce the NOx emissions.
There's already loads to read on this ...
As a club stance, I'm happy to recommend the following with regard to the EGR valve and blanking ...
If you need a 'quick fix' to deal with belching smoke and/or high emissions, for example, to get through your MOT, then blank the EGR valve - it has proven 100% reliable.
A longer term fix is to get the EGR valve working properly ... after all ... why have a 'factory option' on your car that's not doing its job?
IF you follow the comprehensive details (Tech FAQ) for refurbishing your EGR valve, including cleaning it, ensuring that the vacuum pipe is not blocked AND that the fuel pump is properly callibrated, and you STILL have a problem you may choose to do what we have with ours - blank it off with a club blanking plate.
Our Mk2 2.5 has had a blanking plate fitted for almost 5 years now and has passed the MOT every year.
We've had no indication of over-heating
We have no apparent issues with the engine.
I have recently blanked our 2.8 ... I did refurbish the EGR valve etc ... but I went from a permanently innoperative EGR (bb in the vacuum pipe) to a working EGR valve where, the gear change seemed smoother, but every gear change and every accelleration resulted in a large 'puff' of smoke ... not nice! Now it's blanked, it's running nice and clean again ... what can I say
The choice, ultimately, is yours, but you should consider refurbishing the EGR valve ... it's not that difficult, even if it's just to find out whether it was worth doing or not
ahalton wrote: |
I don't think Simon offers a warranty for the engine running hot and melting the tips of the injectors. |
Scare-mongering at its best ... there are NO recorded incidents of blanking the EGR valve resulting in this
ahalton wrote: |
A disclaimer in the club shop should really be there.
Andrew |
You're probably right Andrew ... the UK gets more like the States every day wrt litigation hunger
HTH
Simon |
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ahalton ******
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 2268 Location: ..........
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 13:55 Post subject: EGR |
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Uk spec Shoguns don't have it fitted because the mixture and timing are altered which reduces bore temperature.
The problems that are caused by blanking are only shown up 40 or 50,000 miles down the line, when most people have sold the cars.
Blocking the EGR can lead to localised hot spots in the head which will contribute to cracked heads and blown head gaskets.
How many people on here have had blown gaskets and cracked heads and have blocked the EGR off.
I think rather than making bold statements Simon if you spoke to the man who does know and see where he stands on blocking the EGR off
Andrew |
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PoCUK Site Admin
Age: 60 Zodiac: Joined: 09 Oct 2002 Posts: 3749 Location: S/W New Forest Border
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 14:24 Post subject: Re: EGR |
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ahalton wrote: |
Uk spec Shoguns don't have it fitted because the mixture and timing are altered which reduces bore temperature. |
Yaaaaawn ...
which is why Andrew, when you look back through my (many) previous posts on this subject, you will see that I have consistently maintained the following ....
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Whether you choose to refurbish or blank your EGR valve, you NEED to have the pump recallibrated to ensure proper operation |
ahalton wrote: |
The problems that are caused by blanking are only shown up 40 or 50,000 miles down the line, when most people have sold the cars. |
And your stats for this come from where Andrew?
Let me get this right ... you are stating that if you fit an EGR valve, then 40-50,000 miles down the line you WILL have problems BECAUSE you blanked the EGR valve on an engine that may have already covered anything between 80 - 150,000 miles and was already showing signs of potential problems (eg belching black smoke) ???
I would love to see the records that prove what you're saying Andrew and I give my absolute assurance, I will withdraw the blanking plates from sale AND send out a notice to ALL members if you can prove it to be true
ahalton wrote: |
Blocking the EGR can lead to localised hot spots in the head which will contribute to cracked heads and blown head gaskets. |
No Andrew, blanking the valve, WITHOUT re-calibrating the fuel pump, can leave an engine, that could already have issues (eg weak spots) susceptible to the tiny peaks in temperature that were previously not so readily encountered AS A BY-PRODUCT of having a working EGR valve with a correctly callibrated fuel pump.
ahalton wrote: |
How many people on here have had blown gaskets and cracked heads and have blocked the EGR off. |
another golden oldie ... this is a completely mis-leading question Andrew, as you'll recall if you've read previous posts on this ... Here are better (more relevant) questions ...
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How many people whose Pajero has suffered 'belching smog' and high emissions have subsequently had blown gaskets and cracked heads? |
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Is the period between identifying a 'belching smog' & high emissions problem and subsequent blown gasket / cracked head shorter or longer as a result of blanking the EGR valve AND recallibrating the fuel pump? |
Your question is no more relevant than, say "How many people with a cracked cylinder head were driving with AT tyres" ... I guess it will be around 95% ... but one did not cause the other!
ahalton wrote: |
I think rather than making bold statements Simon if you spoke to the man who does know and see where he stands on blocking the EGR off
Andrew |
Having spoken to a number of 'men who do know' Including Ivor and Jaycee, you'll see that the blanking plates are still available Andrew ... and it's not for the money I make less that £1 a plate and am lucky if I sell as many as half a dozen a week.
The blanking plates have consistently proven to be a real 'life-saver' for many people who would otherwise fail their MOT (for example) ...
I still maintain, there is NO recorded, proven case of blanking an EGR valve being the CAUSE of ANY engine problem.
Quite why we keep repeating the same old stuff time and again, I have no idea
Still ... as I say, show me the proof and I will withdraw them from sale AND send out a club-wide email with the details.
Simon |
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aer Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 15:05 Post subject: |
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Hi,
Could anybody tell me exactly how to recalibrate the pump on my 2.8?
Thnx |
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ahalton ******
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 2268 Location: ..........
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 15:12 Post subject: EGR |
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The first time I ever spoke to Ivor the he went into great depths about why the EGR should not be blanked and gave many reasons why. I have no idea why you would have got a different story from him and how come he has not mention the problems he has seen because the EGR had been blanked.
You might yaaaawn at my comments but I didn't see your consistent answer in this post. If you had been consistent then I would obviously not have posted that comment.
If an engine is serviced properly and the injectors are serviced at 60,000 miles and the pump recalibrated and the EGR cleaned then the car wouldn't be belching black smoke out.
My proof of the damage that could be caused or contributed to blocking the EGR is on this site. All the people who saythat without warning a head has cracked, the cooling system was well maintained, oil changed etc. What else would have caused the problem except from problems within the combustion chamber.
As I state again blockin the EGR can could be one of the many reasons why an engine fails and it would be impossible of me to know and to be honest silly of you to suggest a difinitive answer. Same as saying a car that never has an oil change will fail, its not a gaurantee, some cars will happily do 100,000 miles on long life oil.
I don't usually get involved with EGR conversations because of all the mis-information and feeling that surrounds it, and also I don't really care if poeple block it or not, I can't on mine, it has to work.
Its just seeing the 30 posts a week about the EGR is getting too much and a standard response should posted showing the for and against and showing the clubs position.
As for money Simon you need to put the price up then, I for one want you to make as much money as you can out of POUK, its about time (just let me screw you down on prices).
Andrew |
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more x 4 Shining Star
Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 8104 Location: stevenage,herts
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 17:51 Post subject: |
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aer wrote: |
Hi,
Could anybody tell me exactly how to recalibrate the pump on my 2.8?
Thnx |
you don't,you take it to a diesel specialist,they will do it for you
and andrew,give me a ring when you get chance |
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PoCUK Site Admin
Age: 60 Zodiac: Joined: 09 Oct 2002 Posts: 3749 Location: S/W New Forest Border
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 19:04 Post subject: |
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I've spoken at length with Ivor ...
I agree, when we've discussed it, Ivor has said that blanking the EGR without recallibrating the pump COULD accelerate any EXISTING problems ...
I do not recall at any point in any of our conversations Ivor telling me that blanking the EGR valve has specifically proven to be the primary cause of any issues that he has encountered.
BOTH of our PJ's have their EGR valves blanked - the 2.5 for nearly 5 years now ... probably over 60,000 miles;)
As for my yaaaawn Andrew ... I'm sorry, that was unfair, but this topic has been 'done to death' so many times ...
<search>
EGR : 1207 matches
EGR and VALVE : 756 matches
EGR and blank* : 576 matches
EGR and refurbish* : 12 matches
EGR posts in Tech FAQ : 16 matches
posts referencing EGR by me (PoCUK) : 46 matches
There is MORE than enough information already in the forums for club members to be able to make an informed decision ... more posts like this (continue to) simply clutter the forums rather than serve any useful purpose now
Simon |
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PG Scooby LifeTime Member
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 884 Location: Eastbourne, 'Suntrap of the South' & final resting place for the many!!!
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 21:34 Post subject: |
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At the risk of becoming an EGR bore - I do seem to end up posting on most of the EGR related threads - I just want to add this:
I've done a lot of research into the EGR - not just on here but with a lot of help from Google - and have always come to the conclusion that it's best to leave it as Mitsubishi intended with all parts clean and operational.
HOWEVER, I've recently had some (non EGR) running problems and had a general conversation with my local, and very helpful, diesel injection specialist 'Diplock Injection Services' in Hailsham, near Eastbourne. That's all they do, and have done for a very long time. I've used them in the past and have a lot of respect for them.
We got onto the subject of the EGR and just when I was starting to get a bit opinionated on the subject I was told "just block it off, it's more trouble than it's worth". I tried my standard comment on the running temperarure (which I've not yet got over!) to be told "well, do you think it's better to try and run your engine on dirty air? All that does is to choke up the head, especially if the mixture's wrong"
He then went on to tell me that he's seen more problems with duff EGR's that blanked ones, but did say the mixture needed re-setting to prevent other problems if you blank the EGR.
Simon's right, this has been done to death. The trouble is that every time a new member joins, they think they have caught on to some kind of secret information never before shared and off we go again!
Maybe some of the better informed members should get their heads around a definative answer - or perhaps put together a round up of the best pros and cons to let Newbies make an informed decision.
Make it a 'Sticky' at the top of Tech and Newbies and it's sorted forever (some hope!!!) |
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ahalton ******
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 2268 Location: ..........
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 22:20 Post subject: EGR |
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Simon this only reinforces what my orignal post was getting at.
Two things mainly, the first been some kind of cautionary note in the club shop, just like on a packet of aspirin saying they might cause side effects, it doesn't mean they will just that they might.
Secondly please for the sake of the sanity of the people who have been here for some time have a specific link to a thread that discusses this in depth that is given as a standard answer when somebody asks about the EGR.
There is no conclusive answer so as you say why discuss it anymore.
I'm certainly not having a go at any newbies who ask this question, they have a right to ask and without them the forum wouldn't move forward.
While I'am on about my lack of sanity can we also put a stick up about MPG and maybe have a poll on what the different models get, might cut back on the 40 posts a week about that
Andrew |
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PoCUK Site Admin
Age: 60 Zodiac: Joined: 09 Oct 2002 Posts: 3749 Location: S/W New Forest Border
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:24 Post subject: Re: EGR |
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PG Scooby wrote: |
...I've recently had some (non EGR) running problems and had a general conversation with my local, and very helpful, diesel injection specialist 'Diplock Injection Services' in Hailsham, near Eastbourne. That's all they do, and have done for a very long time....
We got onto the subject of the EGR and just when I was starting to get a bit opinionated on the subject I was told "just block it off, it's more trouble than it's worth". |
Now there's a thing PG ...
I have dealt with a range of people who have been dealing with diesels fitted with vacuum controlled EGR valves for years ... (don't even start on computer managed ones - they are a WHOLE different ball game and blanking an ECU managed EGR valve will mess up the whole fuel management system) ... and the general opinion is, as I have described, if you are having problems with yours they're not worth the bother - blank it off, recallibrate the fuel pump and check the timing.
These people include race team mechanics, import specialists and others.
I agree, when something is fitted to the engine, the instinctive view is that it should work as intended ... but, (and I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here) "looking outside of the box" that has to be taken in context ... the EGR valve is fitted to Japanese Pajeros NOT to control temperature peaks within the engine, but to control the NOx emissions to fit with the emissions legislation within Japan ... In Japan, more importance is given to controlling NOx emissions and less to COx emissions ... the reverse is true in the UK, effectively making the EGR valve redundant in the UK anyway ... its function doesn't include reducing carbon based emissions - how can it?
ahalton wrote: |
Simon this only reinforces what my orignal post was getting at. |
I don't believe it does reinforce your original post Andrew, but it does highlight what a 'can of worms' the whole EGR valve issue continues to be
ahalton wrote: |
Two things mainly, the first been some kind of cautionary note in the club shop, just like on a packet of aspirin saying they might cause side effects, it doesn't mean they will just that they might. |
Maybe an overall disclaimer for the entire club "Anything that you do based on information supplied within the POCUK you do at your own risk"
ahalton wrote: |
Secondly please for the sake of the sanity of the people who have been here for some time have a specific link to a thread that discusses this in depth that is given as a standard answer when somebody asks about the EGR. |
I believe we have a number of those ... although, generally they seem to degrade into a debate between the shoulds and shouldn'ts Some of the best threads though are already in the Tech FAQ section.
ahalton wrote: |
There is no conclusive answer so as you say why discuss it anymore. |
As said earlier ... every now and again, this keeps coming up ... I can only guess that either people don't like the balanced views available within the Tech FAQ or they can't see the <search> link --- the big RED one towards the top of the forums
ahalton wrote: |
I'm certainly not having a go at any newbies who ask this question, they have a right to ask and without them the forum wouldn't move forward. |
Not at all ... although a pointer to the Tech FAQ would serve more purpose than adding to the hundreds of EGR entries already on the database 8)
ahalton wrote: |
While I'am on about my lack of sanity can we also put a stick up about MPG and maybe have a poll on what the different models get, might cut back on the 40 posts a week about that
Andrew |
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more x 4 Shining Star
Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 8104 Location: stevenage,herts
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:43 Post subject: |
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this is the one time i'll say that the search is useless,no newbie will sit and read the thousands of posts/replies about the EGR. i think a condensed version with the most rational pro's/cons would be a good idea |
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