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TOWING LIMITS (AGAIN)

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mwilcock
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:26    Post subject: TOWING LIMITS (AGAIN) Reply with quote

Hi guys/girls.

Been trying for a few days to find towing limits using google, dvla, dft and many many other people.

I have a 1996 mitsubishi shogun 2.5 td manual.

I am going to take my B+E category so i can tow above 750kg.

I have phoned the dvla and they say i cannot tow above the laden weight of the vehicle towing ( i have this recorded on my phone ) she sounded unsure.

The woman then passed me onto department for transport to which i was told i need to know the max train weight and said the woman at the dvla was wrong. (well thats great being given wrong information)

With the train weight i deduct the vehicle thats towing weight (didnt specify gross or laden in her notes she was reading as i asked but ill take it upon myself to guess at laden vehicle weight)

So lets say my shogun weighs (after searching) 1900kg fully laden (loaded)

I now need to know the max train weight so i can deduct the 1900k full laden weight this will then give me the max that i can tow providing i dont go over the max braked trailer weight.

According the mitsubishi uk shoguns/pajeros do not have it stamped on the vin (like a ford ka which does not have towing limits therefore cannot tow legally in the uk)

So what does this mean pajeros and shoguns cannot legally tow in the uk? Seems silly to me.

So does anyone have an answer?

Max train weight?
Max braked trailer weight?

This is a SWB 2.5TD UK SHOGUN not a LWB!

Thanks
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bbrown1664
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look under your bonnet at the weight data plate there.

There will be four main figures. One is maximum weight on the front axle, one for the rear axle, one combined max weight for both axles (usually lower than 1+2) and one for a combined train weight including trailer. This is in teh region of 6000KG and is not that different from the LWB but wont be as stable at speed.

From memory, the max train weight is about 3-3.5 tonnes heavier than the max weight of the car itself. Good practice is not to exceed the vehicle weight even if the max train weight says you can as it makes for an unstable combination.
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jonnybobs
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Mate,

i'm in a similer boat to you!!!

Ok, this is my method and i'm sticking with it.... I'm NOT doing the B+E as I think there is NO need for it as im under the limit.

Ok, I have found that the Pajero I have is 1880Kg I'm not sure if this is curb weight or not as I found thsi document online (and i printed it too), So, for good merasure, I added 500Kg payload making that figure now 2380Kg Max load.

So, with that in mind, I now take the max weight of my caravan which I think was 1080Kg and add this to my figure of 2380kg to give me a total of 3460Kg, keeping me UNDER the 3500Kg limit to which WE CAN tow as an outfit.

3500Kg Max Train weight = Max plate weight of car and max plate weight of trailer MUST NOT exceed 3500kg. Physical weight can be under but vosa work on the MAX WEIGHT on the plate.

Simple as that mate!!!!
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tom fenton
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 13:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also in a similar boat- missed the earlier license by 8 months. For me ridiculously I can get away with towing my car trailer (400kg unladen, 1400kg MAM incl trailer so 1000kg imposed load) with my Audi A4 estate as this is approx 2000kg thus the combination is less than 3500kg.

However if I tow the same thing with my LWB Shogun, I'm technically overweight on the 3500kg due to the weight of the truck.

The Audi does the job with no issues, but the Shogun is undoubtedly the more capable and stable (and thirsty) towing vehicle.

I've got a B+E course booked to make 100% sure I'm always legal.
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bbrown1664
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 13:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonny, I hope you dont plan to tow in France!

With a Shogun and even a light weight caravan you WILL be limited to truck speeds now and if you get a tug and dont have the B+E on your licence, expect a big fine.
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Firkhamhall
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 13:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read all about it Here.... Smile
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jonnybobs
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 13:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this is all well and good BUT

Pajero's do not carry any offical weight plates on them for the UK, therefore it's hard to determain anything.

I've been on this since the day I bought the truck.. I was always nervous and concious of this myself.

I have called, DVLA, Vosa and loads of other places. None of them can help!!!

They make these rules but have no idea about what to do in the event of an import. D'oh!
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jonnybobs
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 13:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry,

Just read this bit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a type approved car, but no train weight is shown on the VIN plate, may I still tow with it?

If the manufacturer has not authorised the towing of a trailer by declaration during the type approval process, no train weight will be shown and it is not permitted to fit a coupling device or tow a trailer.

For example the Ford KA has no declared train weight, and no mounting points for a tow bar. There are a number of other vehicles, which do not have a declared train weight and are not able to tow a trailer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

interesting bit of text...!

The fundimental "differences" between a Shogun and a Pajero are the names, (Ok with some extras) the Chassis and running gear are the same.

So using their logic (above) they are saying a shogun CAN tow and a pajero NOT tow? Stevie wonder can see the cars are the same! The shogun will have gone throught ther "approval" process...!! All but a name...... If you go to court over this one point i'm sure it'd get thrown out...!
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Firkhamhall
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnybobs wrote:

interesting bit of text...!

The fundimental "differences" between a Shogun and a Pajero are the names, (Ok with some extras) the Chassis and running gear are the same.

So using their logic (above) they are saying a shogun CAN tow and a pajero NOT tow? Stevie wonder can see the cars are the same! The shogun will have gone throught ther "approval" process...!! All but a name...... If you go to court over this one point i'm sure it'd get thrown out...!
That's the point I made on these forums a while back. It is, in fact, illegal to fit a tow bar to any vehicle without the gross train weight displayed and declared by the manufacturer. If imported into the country, it is the responsibility of the importer to obtain type approval and there is talk of doing the same as in France and other European countries forcing importers to do this and making it illegal to sell imported vehicles without the necessary paperwork. The sticking point at the moment is can it be made retrospective to already imported vehicles That's why you can still get away with towing with an import at the moment.

As soon as they sort it, I am sure they will come up with a way to make all Paj and other foreign import vehicles owners pay.....
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mwilcock
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok guys i was trying to keep this to 1 page for people like myself searching for an answer.

Mine is uk spec AND LISTS NO TOWING LIMITS ANYWHERE!

I have emailed the dft and awaiting reply.

The link given if you read the statement says there is no rules in uk law with a trailer under 3500kg?

Paragraph underneath says can tow up to the braked im guessing max braked trailer limit.

Underneath it goes on about lgv vehicles but that isnt shoguns is it. The rule about max train weight applies to lgv's so whats the rules lol?

So forget max train weight, forget 85% kerb weight (caravan club guideline)  

From what ive read just then (using my phone) on the dft link, the max you can tow goes off the max braked trailer limit.

Shoguns/pajeros dont have one therefore we cant tow?

Thats unless someone has a shogun handbook and it says it?
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Firkhamhall
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoguns do, it's on your VIN plant on the bulkhead under the bonnet. I will photo mine for you in a minute Smile
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mwilcock
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok well mines a 2.5 td swb manual and mine doesnt have one.

It has the vin plate under the bonnet but lists no towing limits
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Firkhamhall
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is very strange indeed. Perhaps your started out as a Pajero?



Mine is a 2.8 TD LWB Shogun. full size image here
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Firkhamhall
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 14:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnybobs wrote:
hi Mate,

i'm in a similer boat to you!!!

Ok, this is my method and i'm sticking with it.... I'm NOT doing the B+E as I think there is NO need for it as im under the limit.

Ok, I have found that the Pajero I have is 1880Kg I'm not sure if this is curb weight or not as I found thsi document online (and i printed it too), So, for good merasure, I added 500Kg payload making that figure now 2380Kg Max load.

So, with that in mind, I now take the max weight of my caravan which I think was 1080Kg and add this to my figure of 2380kg to give me a total of 3460Kg, keeping me UNDER the 3500Kg limit to which WE CAN tow as an outfit.

3500Kg Max Train weight = Max plate weight of car and max plate weight of trailer MUST NOT exceed 3500kg. Physical weight can be under but vosa work on the MAX WEIGHT on the plate.

Simple as that mate!!!!
If you do not have category B+E on your licence, the maximum trailer weight you are allowed to tow is 750kg without brakes. You are not allowed to tow a braked trailer or any trailer over 750kg never mind what the max train weight or what your vehicle can tow.
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jonnybobs
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 15:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

From HERE

I have a CAT B licence

M.A.M is the same as M.G.W

My Caravan's MAM aka M.G.W      =    1080Kg
Pajero's (assumed MAM)              =    2360Kg

As I work in a caravan / trailer shop and sell caravans, I have to be 99% suer of the advice I give. Failure for me to give the correct advice means our insurance becomes invalid.

I have printed this and lamitated it in the shop
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