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Where have all the good or decent dealers gone?

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Belinea2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 20:04    Post subject: Where have all the good or decent dealers gone? Reply with quote

Well for the last month I have been trying to find a shogun/Paj/Pinin that's within my budget and from a dealer who seems decent and gives a half way good customer service.

I am shocked at the level of what seems to be cowboys out there.

I have been surfing what few used shogun/paj dealers websites I can find as well as checking auto trader, exchange and mart and even eBay every other day and I have emailed the sellers of any vehicle that looked the part with various questions mainly about the mileage, how many previous owners, is the vehicle still for sale and what level, if any, do they have of the service history. I have been asking a lot about did they know when the Cam belt was changed and so on.

The shocking thing is the huge number of sellers who just don't bother replying...

A couple have replied simply saying yes the car is still for sale but ignored the other questions..

Most of them claim to be trade sellers (especially those on auto trader) but I have called a few and asked and it turns out they "sell a few cars from home" to make a bit of money on the side!!!!!!

I'm sorry but that is NOT my idea of a trade seller. To me a trade seller is someone who at least has a business premises and some kind of facility for checking the car they are selling is safe and legal to sell, conforms to UK laws and, if anything goes wrong, make any repairs to the cars they sell.

THREE separate so called Trade sellers that I contacted by telephone seemed not to be able to speak plain English (as in they were not originally from the UK) and when I politely questioned then about their cars and basic UK car selling rules, they either could not, or would not give a straight answer.

It's enough to make you paranoid about every car you show interest in and to be honest, as I am not hugely confident about buying cars, I don't know who the heck to trust.

I am appalled.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 22:21    Post subject: Re: Where have all the good or decent dealers gone? Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
Well for the last month I have been trying to find a shogun/Paj/Pinin that's within my budget and from a dealer who seems decent and gives a half way good customer service.

I am shocked at the level of what seems to be cowboys out there.

I have been surfing what few used shogun/paj dealers websites I can find as well as checking auto trader, exchange and mart and even eBay every other day and I have emailed the sellers of any vehicle that looked the part with various questions mainly about the mileage, how many previous owners, is the vehicle still for sale and what level, if any, do they have of the service history. I have been asking a lot about did they know when the Cam belt was changed and so on.

The shocking thing is the huge number of sellers who just don't bother replying...
a lot of sellers don't really get the whole email thing

A couple have replied simply saying yes the car is still for sale but ignored the other questions..
says a lot about there trading style

Most of them claim to be trade sellers (especially those on auto trader) but I have called a few and asked and it turns out they "sell a few cars from home" to make a bit of money on the side!!!!!!
always been the same

I'm sorry but that is NOT my idea of a trade seller. To me a trade seller is someone who at least has a business premises and some kind of facility for checking the car they are selling is safe and legal to sell, conforms to UK laws and, if anything goes wrong, make any repairs to the cars they sell.
try buying a car from carcraft, massive company but if anything goes wrong they do not fix the car, they get you to get an engineers report that you pay for and a warranty company says yes or no to whether you get paid for the claim,what uk laws do you have to conform to to sell a car?
a trader doesn't have to have a nice showroom and garage, some of the best cars i have bought off traders are been off lads who work out of a unit or yard.


THREE separate so called Trade sellers that I contacted by telephone seemed not to be able to speak plain English (as in they were not originally from the UK) and when I politely questioned then about their cars and basic UK car selling rules, they either could not, or would not give a straight answer.

i'm sorry but what has someones nationallity got to do with anything? are immigrants not allowed to run a business?
what are these basic car selling rules? do you know what all the rules and legislation are?


It's enough to make you paranoid about every car you show interest in and to be honest, as I am not hugely confident about buying cars, I don't know who the heck to trust.
go to a main dealer, they have nice showrooms and a garage on site and buy one from them, you will get their full dealer warranty. if you are buying second hand then you are not going to get the full dealer experience.
try having a ride to some of the places you have emailed and phoned, you may be surprised


I am appalled.

don't see why, there are good and bad everywhere and in every walk of life. the more you look the more chances you have of finding a good one Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with pretty much what Gegs says above.  

A lot of people part time trade from home now, and a lot have higher standards and more knowledge than a garage with a forecourt ...  look at Gazziz on here, or the guy called warwick 4x4 on ebay, or John, or Lee on Pocuk facebook - who mainly break Paj's, but are up front.

If you want a garage that more or less fit your description, then apparently  http://www.bullivants.co.uk/ seem to fit the bill. I've no idea if their cars are checked or anything, but from the 2 that are on there at the moment, they look quite good, but are probably priced at over £1000 more than what you'd pay privately for a very good one.

happy hunting

Mark " likes em cheap" Dale
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TooMany2cvs
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trouble is that being a "proper" trader - decent premises, thorough prep etc - isn't cheap. It just isn't - can't be - profitable to trade on that basis with 20yo £1500 cars. You'd lose money hand-over-fist. The costs per car are higher, because you have to be much pickier on buying, and there's a much greater chance of problems from the average sale. But you can't even build the same margin in to the cost, let alone a higher one, so the costs just cannot be covered.

Honestly, buying any cheap vehicle from the trade is just an invitation to get tucked up by a shark. Sure, there's exceptions, but they're rare. Value, at this price level, comes from buying privately.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 17:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could answer this as a specialist Pajero dealer of 11 years experience.
But it would involve TOO much typing. lol
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 21:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies and advice guys.

I guess it's a sign of the times and I take on board what you say about the best deals are to be had privately but I do worry that you have less come back against a private seller if some thing goes wrong.

Obviously trade sellers have to stick to the rules about being fit for purpose and ultimately there is always trading standards but what come back do you have against a private seller, next to nothing really...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 0:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
but what come back do you have against a private seller, next to nothing really...


And, of course, you have to pay for that "comeback" - whether you need it or not - because the trader has to build it into his margin, and thereby the price in the windscreen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 0:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullivants aren't doing imports anymore...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

TooMany2cvs wrote:
Belinea2010 wrote:
but what come back do you have against a private seller, next to nothing really...


And, of course, you have to pay for that "comeback" - whether you need it or not - because the trader has to build it into his margin, and thereby the price in the windscreen.


But if the trader did their homework on the car before putting up for sale then they wouldn't need to build a margin would they  Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
TooMany2cvs wrote:
Belinea2010 wrote:
but what come back do you have against a private seller, next to nothing really...


And, of course, you have to pay for that "comeback" - whether you need it or not - because the trader has to build it into his margin, and thereby the price in the windscreen.


But if the trader did their homework on the car before putting up for sale then they wouldn't need to build a margin would they  Smile


Yes, because that "homework" costs time so raises the variable costs per vehicle, as well as massively cutting down the number of cars they can buy and retail, meaning they have to spread their fixed costs thicker.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
TooMany2cvs wrote:
Belinea2010 wrote:
but what come back do you have against a private seller, next to nothing really...


And, of course, you have to pay for that "comeback" - whether you need it or not - because the trader has to build it into his margin, and thereby the price in the windscreen.


But if the trader did their homework on the car before putting up for sale then they wouldn't need to build a margin would they  Smile


Please, just based on that statement there, get an AA or engineer's report before you buy any car, Paj or not.
You obviously have no idea about buying cars.
You are suggesting that by doing his homework, the dealer doesn't have to allow for sudden mechanical failure.
What homework would you suggest? lol
Full dealer service history, umpteen stamps in the book, little old lady one owner car in what appears to be mint condition.
even that sort of car can blow cylinder head, alternator, starter, turbo, overdrive clutch etc
at ANY point in it's life. Sudden mechanical failure.

Re the original statement...emails are easy to type, so are a frequent form of first contact.
From my experience, I'd weed out who I thought was serious, who wasn't.
You are asking fairly basic questions, which I would answer but without seeing the language used, I'd reserve judgement.
Dealers receive loads of contact by email, text, phone etc. (rarely carrier pigeon although I have suggested that in some well-worded ads, lol).
Personal contact is best, followed by phone.
I know some dealers that take the attitude if the buyer is serious, he will at LEAST lift the phone.
Text and emails get ignored...they rarely result in a decent lead.
Also, if you are serious, you will escalate the non-reply into the phone call.
You MUST have asked yourself at some point " are these guys not getting my emails?"
If not, why not, maybe it's me or them or the system. Next logical step, if you are serious, phone them.

What retailers do generally....
put the goods out, narrow down who wants to buy, use sales techniques on those that appear worthwhile.
Th "open all hours" corner shop has gone.
No time to spend with folks that just want to chat, real work is waiting.
Sure, some genuine buyers are lost but the averages come into play.
Concentrate time on those most likely to buy...in all retailing, not just cars.
Look at gumtree...they have an offer button.
You ad at say 1500, offers come in at the press of a button.
GREAT idea you say.
err...NAW, I say.
I have NEVER had the offer come in, I accept that offer and the offererererer(lol) come in and buy.
Just doesn't happen, even when offer is accepted by me and the offer is way low. Smile

Re the comment cowboys.
erm, surely the phrase is reserved for when you have a car with problems that they will not resolve.
Or you go see a car that has been described less than honestly.
The phrase cowboys is highly offensive.
Shouldn't apply to folks that buy and sell cars on the internet that just don't reply to emails. Harsh at best mate.

Your "idea" of trade seller is at fault, blame squarely at YOUR door for that one.
The label trade seller is entrenched in law. And regulation. And rules.
And more rules, regulations and laws.
The latest being even if you are a wee business, you are now responsible for sorting your trade waste
into blue bins, grey bins, sky-blue-pink bins for recycling.
Another storage cost, time cost, paperwork cost, money cost.

Some of the very nicest people I have bought and sold from have been foreign.

My observations?
East Europeans are very nice people, delightful to talk to, eager to spend time, whether buyer or seller.
Not as skilled at negotiation, but you feel like you must do a decent deal to remain friendly.
Maybe that's their technique...get the best deal by being your pal.
Most have one eye long term...deal here and now, but possible more deals in the future.

Other European countries closer to home can be a bit stand-offish...haredr to read but nice enough folks.

Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi?
That's where it gets really interesting.
Their language, when spoken in English, accentuates the wrong words.
That's why they get our backs up.
Get over HOW it's said and listen to the words that are said, translate them into the lesat offensive way of saying them,
and you get on a lot easier.
Example...that car is a heap of junk.
When said monotone, with a smile, it's a joke.
When said "that car IS a heap of junk" becomes offensive.
Dead simple, happens all the time.
Hard negotiators, but realise that most will come in with extreme low offers.
eg..offer at 2000, they offer 900. Don't get offended. You then JUSTIFY your price and you BARTER back and firth.
But BE HARD. Leave airs, graces at the door, most don't appreciate it.
Having said all that, I was exremely respectful to my last Indian guys.
Three guys travelled from Birmingham for a car. Very religious, very respectful, very quick.

So buying or selling, to and from foreigners, welcome to the UK pal. Smile

You think YOU are paranoid?
I got out of the buying and selling game before nit-pickers drove me crazy. lol
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 18:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi johndps

Thanks for taking the time to write such a long and thoughtful reply.

i really appreciate it and it made great and interesting reading.

You are correct when you say I know nothing about buying cars, I don't and that's why I'm
Asking the questions I am and so on.

I take on board all that you have said and will try and bare it in mind when I view vehicles.

That said however, I do take issue when you say my idea of a trade seller is wrong and the term Cowboy is offensive and so on.

We both agree that trade dealers are subject to rules and regulations and then more rules on top so I am
Not exactly sure what you are getting at?

Purely from a lay person member of the public point of view, these rules and regs are there to protect us.
Yes from a trade sellers point of view I guess they can be a pain in the *beep* but I'm not a seller, I'm a buyer.

I'm afraid I agree with more regs on trade waste as I am very Eco minded and I'm sure you will argue against it but with the amount of waste we generate as a whole (and in a growing population) it's imperative that we start being more responsible.
But this is not what this post is about.....

Look at the end of the day, I am a member of the public who needs to know, and has the right, that any purchase I make is fit for use and if it goes wrong I have a means of recourse whether the purchase was for £5 or £50,000.

That's why all the rules and regs you mention are there.

It's like when you go to the supermarket or electrical store and buy something you need, if it does not work or breaks down shortly after purchase you have the right to take it back and get your money back, or a repair or an exchange so the same rules and regs that seem to inconvenience trade sellers also protects anything they buy in their day to day lives.

I'm sorry but rules and regulations in any sense are there for a reason and if you do not agree with that then lets be gentlemen and agree to disagree  Very Happy

In any trade and in any walk of life there are Cowboys. There are cowboy builders, cowboy plumbers, cowboy painters and YES cowboy car salesmen.... If you think that there are not then it is you that's wrong on that one.

I am not debating or saying every tradesman is a cowboy because that is plainly wrong and THAT would be offensive to those that are honest and work hard but to deny they exist and plague every trade is living in a bubble.

Anyone, and it is anyone, can go and buy in a car to sell on and call themselves a "trade seller" but this does not mean that are trustworthy.

Do they have the years of experience and knowledge to check that any vehicle they sell is mechanically sound and fit for purpose?
Before buying the vehicle did they do all the checks that we as buyers are expected to do?
When they say in their adverts that a vehicle is in perfect condition inside and out, did they actually check that it is?

The law in the UK as far as buying from a trade, does not say buyer beware (that's more for private sales). Trade sales are subject to the rules and regs you mentioned before to protect buyers and my argument is that I can't see how some dude who decides to sell a few cars from a little pitch with a porta cabin or from home has the resources to make sure they conform with the rules when things go wrong...

Yes that could refund the purchaser but they could not offer a like for like exchange and they could not offer to repair because they don't have the facilities....

This is my whole argument...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 18:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
The law in the UK as far as buying from a trade, does not say buyer beware (that's more for private sales). Trade sales are subject to the rules and regs you mentioned before to protect buyers


Don't forget that - for used goods, such as cars - the Sale of Goods Act applies a test that varies depending on the age/price of the goods being sold. There's a much, much lower expectation - legally speaking - of a £1,500 20yo vehicle than for a £15,000 2yo one. Wear and tear and failures which cannot have been foreseen by the supplier are also not protected.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 19:42    Post subject: Re: Where have all the good or decent dealers gone? Reply with quote

Belinea2010 wrote:
Well for the last month I have been trying to find a shogun/Paj/Pinin that's within my budget and from a dealer who seems decent and gives a half way good customer service.

I am shocked at the level of what seems to be cowboys out there.

I have been surfing what few used shogun/paj dealers websites I can find as well as checking auto trader, exchange and mart and even eBay every other day and I have emailed the sellers of any vehicle that looked the part with various questions mainly about the mileage, how many previous owners, is the vehicle still for sale and what level, if any, do they have of the service history. I have been asking a lot about did they know when the Cam belt was changed and so on.

The shocking thing is the huge number of sellers who just don't bother replying...

A couple have replied simply saying yes the car is still for sale but ignored the other questions..

Most of them claim to be trade sellers (especially those on auto trader) but I have called a few and asked and it turns out they "sell a few cars from home" to make a bit of money on the side!!!!!!

I'm sorry but that is NOT my idea of a trade seller. To me a trade seller is someone who at least has a business premises and some kind of facility for checking the car they are selling is safe and legal to sell, conforms to UK laws and, if anything goes wrong, make any repairs to the cars they sell.

THREE separate so called Trade sellers that I contacted by telephone seemed not to be able to speak plain English (as in they were not originally from the UK) and when I politely questioned then about their cars and basic UK car selling rules, they either could not, or would not give a straight answer.

It's enough to make you paranoid about every car you show interest in and to be honest, as I am not hugely confident about buying cars, I don't know who the heck to trust.

I am appalled.


No offence mate, but as I understand it, you want to buy a possibly 20yr old car, with a warranty written in blood from a trader that gives you a 5 star "royal" service. Come on, how much profit do you think there is in a £1500 car!  Laughing I've got a mate that underwrites £5000 cars on a £200 margin, its tough out there for everybody!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 20:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I was on about when referring to your idea of trade seller...
your idea is that he has premises, facilities etc.
The law defines trade as someone who regularly sells cars for a profit.
So whether they are at home selling one a month or on a pitch selling hundreds, they are still trade seller.

Rules and regs are there to protect you, yes.
You also mention you have a budget.
That budget has to be pushed as more overheads affect the sale price.
Joe Public asks for the regs, but seldom wants to pay the premium.

Rules and regs are there to protect you.
Here's an interesting one for you...
I can sell a car to someone that REALLY knows his stuff.
He agrees to all the faults and accepts them, so he gets a right decent price.
Both parties go in the deal with their eyes wide open.
The rules and regs don't allow that style of selling.
Even if the customer wants it.

Nope, no argument from me about trade waste. Smile
I have long failed to understand why households have different bins, but trade premises, who can generate massive amounts of waste did not have that facility.
I'll argue long and hard about global warming and it's causes, cos I do not believe we have enough reliable data,
but you will get absolutely no argument from me when it comes to dumping.
We are indeed polluting our land.
However...there are a great many recycling businesses out there making monet from waste.
All you do is set up a dumping ground, foplks arrive with their pld cack and away you go.
Separate the letal from the cack and you are already in profit. BIG profits in metals alone.
Take out 2nd hand furniture for re-sale, other g salvage goods for re-sale, left with landfill.
You are well into profit.
So why no compensation for the sorting at the sharp end.
You replace the bin, you pay,
you store the bin, you pay,
you pay to have the kit taken away.
The profit is immense and growing, but in the end, the retailer and ultimately the consumer pays.
It really is great that we are now recycling more, but the cash should be collected at the other end, not the retailer end.

The end purchase price is pushed up because of regs as well.
example...2nd hand dealer licence. It's actually a licence for selling ANY 2nd stuff for any dealer, not just cars.
Dealers have to have it, 180 a year or thereabouts.
What for? Seriously. Why is that required? Why not make it a pound? Still get the database details of the seller.
And the customer eventually benefits as the dealer margins aren't pushed as far.
Regs again...VAT.
Crazy example...buy a car for 1000, sell it for 2000. You pay vat on the profit...20% of a grand which is 200.
Fair enough, the regs are there.
BUT...buy the car for 1000, spend 1000 on new gearbox, sell for 2000.
Guess how much you pay in vat? Yup, same 20% of the 1000 profit between the buy price and the sell price. 200.
Regs really do make me confused.
So you can see where my animosity for rules comes from.

Cowboys...of course there are cowboys in the car game.
The vast majority of dealers are not, and we hate the cowboys more than Joe Public.
But you can't justifiably label the folks that haven't even sold you anything yet as cowboys.
Maybe they are...you just don't know YET.
They could well fall into the huge amount of small-time car dealers out there.
Choosing cars that they think are decent, testing them out by driving around in them,
selling them for small profits.
I can assure you, most large dealers do not even drive the trade in cars they get or buy from auctions.

With the greatest respect, buying-selling cars is completely different from any other retail product.
A lot of that is customer expectation.
Example?
Would you allow 3 repairs on  a brand new telly?
Plenty new cars get recalled and repaired for faults, never mind older cars.
However, the law protects dealers in most cases from unreal expectations of customers.
I have only had to refer two people that I couldn't resolve to Trading Standards.
You read that correct.
I have resolved EVERY issue notified to me.
Two people had to be told..."there's trading standards number, get them involved, I'd much rather talk to them than you".

Having said all that, here's some help for ya...
first rule...if it doesn't feel right, walk away.
The first contact, the area, the house, the seller, the breed of dog he keeps.
If it's not right, it's not right...walk away.
Do all the checks, deal with private sellers or dealers.
But always bear in mind this...that car WILL break.
Immediately or in the future, it's gonna need summat. lol.
Take a mechanic, engineer, AA report, another pair of eyes.
But the car will develop faults.
Even new cars have flaws, all you can do is minimise risk.

Good luck, but remember, it's only a car. lol. Smile
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