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Would you Twin-Tank if it was easy?

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Jowter
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:33    Post subject: Would you Twin-Tank if it was easy? Reply with quote

I've been thinking about twin-tanking my 2.8 LWB Mk2 for about three years but never got round to it. Mainly because I'd never seen a Pollack valve & had no idea how to fit or wire one up and also I didn't have a suitable tank - not liking the idea of a plastic cubie with pipes everywhere in the back of the Paj.
A big Paj tank from the orange light coming on will take about 80 litres to fill up, if you fill with svo that's a saving of £28. Obviously much more if you can get clean waste veg oil.

I've spent countless evenings surfing veg oil sites and looking at various installs and it's now time to actually DO SOMETHING  Exclamation

Do you think you'd be interested in twin-tanking your own Pajero to make this sort of saving if there were decent online instructions, and how much do you think it would be worth for a decent kit with good instructions and all the bits?
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dannypaj
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 23:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that hard from what I can tell. One extra tank, two valves and a switch.

There are plenty of guides/advice over at http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybbforum/showthread.php?tid=1697

I'd been planning it for a while, but I've decided to go with a methanol/water injection system to decoke the engine instead to prevent ring gumming. Mine seems to start ok on veg oil with 5% petrol and 0.05% of veggie boost added, even in winter. It doesn't like 100% veg in summer, but maybe that is a pump timing issue.
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Jowter
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 22:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's not that hard from what I can tell. One extra tank, two valves and a switch. There are plenty of guides/advice over at vegetableoildiesel


With all due respect, those links are absolute pants and I doubt anyone with any vehicle has used those scribblings (done by a ten year old?) to fit a twin tank system. I've spend a fair few hours over a few years now reading vegoil articles, pondering over diagrams and looking at youtube vids. I'm a dab-hand at diy mechanic stuff, helped my Dad in his garage from when I could pass him a spanner, did cars at secondary school, had a honda 50 at 12 years old and built my own supercharger system on a Ford pinto Capri so I do have a slight advantage over a Pajero owner who knows how to change the oil & filters and might tackle replacing disc pads but nothing more adventurous than that.
What I'm trying to get to is detailed vehicle specific instructions with diagrams, dimensions, pipe & wire runs, pipe diameters, pipe fitting types & sizes etc. Along with the exact valves & switches to buy with simple to follow wiring instructions.
To give you all some idea, I got the front-to-rear metal heater pipes off from alongside the autobox yesterday (about three hours) I managed to refit them today after cleaning them out & attaching the vegoil hose figuring out the best route for it, bolting it up, unbolting to rearrange, re-bolting, unbolting to adjust, sliding pipe along a bit, poking a tiewrap along a bit (with a very long screwdriver) so the hose would slide a bit more (then repeat.) That was just the run from back of car to engine bay. Then there's where to take it from there, where to fit a filter (proper one with primer pump) what Flat Plate Heater to fit and where and the best runs for the pipes. Where's best to fit the valves & what pipe goes where to them.
It is a complicated job with lots of pre-planning needed (in the absence of such a detailed manual) hence why I suspect few people ever get around to twin-tanking.

If there is a demand then such a manual might become available - maybe even a discount on parts for club members, but until such time as demand is apparent then it won't happen.
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mark dale
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 22:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got most of the kit here here to do it, but never have, for exactly the same reasons ....  If I could just chuck a cubie in the back and run a pipe, and splice it in, then I'd do it ...

or, can I drop it off at yours Jowter?  Laughing

So, yes, I can see the demand and usefulness of a kit and instructions, but, if it is still a pain to do, then I suspect many folks won't do it.


Mark " all the gear and loads of ideas - just never get round to it  Embarassed " Dale
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Jowter
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pain mostly because I'm doing it from scratch without plans to work from.
Once it's done then I would have a better idea of the easiset way. I'm putting a heater in the tank for year-round use so cleaning out the old pipes was required to prevent crud reaching the heater & that all takes up time. A straightforward tank install with a pre-designed & built & bought tank just running a veg hose along underneath to the engine bay would probably be about a two hour job from what I've seen & done on mine. The three days taken to plan the materials, location & fitment then design & make a tank (which still needs best part of a day to finish) is the donkey work! Any generic Pajero twin-tank would need to be an off the shelf item built by a fab shop rather than me making them up & would be the biggest cost - but to the aim of saving money & paying for itself.
There aren't many things you can buy & bolt to your car that actually pay for themselves then start saving you pounds every week. Maybe an LPG kit - how much do they run at just to buy?
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dannypaj
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 23:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I love using free veg oil as a fuel. It's not easy but it's really rewarding when you get all the complicated thinking, planning and work done and you've built your own bespoke filter system or modified your car.
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bobblake
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 23:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannypaj wrote:
That's why I love using free veg oil as a fuel. It's not easy but it's really rewarding when you get all the complicated thinking, planning and work done and you've built your own bespoke filter system or modified your car.


Me to
Free oil and misfule
Way to go.
bob
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vilguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 14:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

im just knocking up a twin tank system on my lwb 2.8. i went up to about 60:40 without it but it was starting to have a noteable affect on its running so back down to about 60:40 until the heat exchangers are in next week.
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Jowter
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 16:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
just knocking up a twin tank system on my lwb 2.8
 Post up some more detail on this if you can please. I had a nightmare with Lumiweld on the ally seams so binned that idea and got some ally kit for my mig welder, two steps forward and one step back but much better progress now.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 15:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah im just cheating and using all off the shelf components mate.

big plastic marine fuel tank, heated fuel filter and insulation along with some 3 port solenoid valves.
Biggest hassle I am having at the minute is finding a good place to sneak the second fuel filter. Its not exactly spacious under the hood with the winter kit thats installed on it. Not without making it look like a dogs dinner anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 15:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

will be installing one on the wifes l200 as well, i should really do that one first as there is acres of room on that, and i was going to put a tank where the spare wheel was with a guard. But as she just managed to pop the HG on it last week I am in no mood to look at it at the minute haha
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 22:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

It started out as an old aluminium fishvan tank



Then magically transformed into this



Supplying this




For these





Probably near on 100 hours from getting the old tank out of storage to flicking the dashboard switch to veg.
I cut it down with a padsaw before getting my hands on my Dad's leccy jigsaw which made life much easier. Using an existing corner I folded up the front end and the left side with the top to fold over from that side. First attempt at the seams was with Lumiweld and my trusty Primus 2000 blowlamp but it took ages to get it up to temp and when testing the seams with a pint of white spirit there were a couple of pinholes in each of the three new corner seams. Each attempt to seal the pinholes made one or two new ones. I didn't fancy the long top seam and after the first day I sourced a 3.9kg dumpy propane bottle & paid £15 to fill it then £31 at Machine Mart for a bigger blowlamp which gave quicker heat input & better progress but after the third day I knew I wouldn't be confident of the seams long-term so blew them all clean and looked at aluminium welding. If I couldn't diy then I'd need to pay an engineering shop on the docks to sort it.
Machine Mart for a coil of ally wire, nozzles & bottle of argon and away I went - bout forty quid.
Everyone says ally welding is really difficult but I got going after a few practice runs and stuck it together. Two or three pinholes but they mended much easier. Various brackets to fab, endless trial-fitting for bracket shape & position then with two on then three then made the fourth bracket. Filler position to sort, hunt for bits, finding bolts & nuts to fit, endless holes to drill & clean - some with a hand drill at midnight in the garage, making a short section of ally pipe from flat stock to go in the tank top mud plate. Bit of rubber to join to the cap section.
The mud plate took ages with having to Lumiweld a dozen captive steel nuts under thicker ally straps round the underside of the opening. The tank is quite thin so the straps are to reduce buckling & give something to tighten the bolts down to. Clingfilm over the wide bead of blue rtv sealant before first proper bolt-down so I could peel it off for a permanent gasket.
I made a low-level warning gubbins from my sister's old fiesta fuel sender. Breather pipe to run up to behind near the existing filler.
Brackets from old bits of fishvan ally, filler top from an old Hyundau H100.
There's a flat plate heater (small) inside the front of the tank with a swirl-box round it to also act as a primary heated area within the main volume of svo. The pick-up pipe in the tank runs into this, the fph outlet runs straight out the front of the tank with the two coolant pipes stubs. Rear underseat heater pipes feed the fph with a new rubber section for the flow (clean to reduce crud blocking the new fph)
Old length of 8mm rubber off a Shogun I scrapped from the tank to the filter head on the offside inner wing then across to the larger size fph between the batteries. This 8mm runs inside the plastic protective sheathing on the original heater pipes & along the brass pipes by the auto trans box to keep it warm - (had them off to clean through - few hours that took)
The fliter water sensor wires are teed into the original two wires for warning in the event that the coolant pipes or fph in the tank spring a leak and contaminate the veg oil.
The three rubber johnny covered gubbins near the Glow relay are repositioned on the inside of the front battery tray upon the glow relay mounting pate from the Shogun & butchered & fettled - it looks like Mitsi put it there at the factory  Cool
Veg/Derv supply solenoid and the Return solenoid fit onto the original glow relay plate with loom through the big grommet under the rear battery. There remains a temp guage fitted in place of the altimeter to wire in, a warning light to fit & wire up for the low level indicator and the LED isn't illuminating on the Veg/Derv/Purge switch so needs attention.
The switch wiring diagram took 1 1/2 days to decipher with several emails to the supplier.
Fitting the switch on the front ledge of the dash top binnacle took several hours.

Been fishing today & did 90 miles, cruising 60 ish there, motoring up to 90 at times home (Mate needed to be home for a family bereavement) so I was surprised to get 29.6 mpg on the veg oil  Very Happy
Next long run will hopefully see 30mpg.
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dannypaj
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 14:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks great, especially the tank. Where exactly have you fitted it?
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Jowter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 23:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

.



I fitted it in the garage mate  Smile   but I have to fill it via the jack cubby:













I SCRAPPED MY SISTERS OLD FIESTA ABOUT FOUR YEARS BACK - SAVED THE SENDER UNIT FOR THIS JOB.








WHEN IT GETS DOWN TO THERE IT'S TIME TO DIG SOME MORE BOTTLES OUT FROM THE FRONT ROOM
IT'S HOLDS JUST OVER 30 LITRES, ABOUT 7 GALLONS - 150 MILES WORTH.


























BREATHER STUB


TOOK IT FOR A FAST TEST RUN TO CHECK THE IN-TANK FPH STUBS

1



VEG PIPE FROM IN-TANK FPH IS AN OLD POWER STEERING PIPE, POSSIBLY FIESTA







SWIRL POT / UP-HILL RESERVOIR /PRIMARY HEATING AREA
NO MATE - THE CARDBOARD IS JUST THE TEMPLATE




















THIS BRACKET BOLTS UP IN HERE - BUT ONLY JUST ROOM FOR A SPANNER
MITSI PUT THAT HOLE IN JUST THE RIGHT PLACE FOR ME







AN OLD FISHVAN SHELF BRACKET CUT & WELDED FOR THE N/S/R TRAILING ARM MOUNT
TACKED INTO PLACE


AND WELDED UP














WATER IN FUEL WIRE PLUG JUST BELOW WIPER MOTOR TO ARMOURED SHEATHING ACROSS BULKHEAD TEED INTO ORIGINAL FILTER WIRES.
THE FILTER IS FIXED TO THE LOWER EXISTING CAPTIVE NUT - ONE'S ENOUGH, IT WON'T BE GOING ANYWHERE SOON.


BULKHEAD LOOM GROMMET UNDER REAR BATTERY
IT'S A RUST TRAP DOWN THERE - IT'S NOW WAXOYLED!


HYUNDAI FILLER CAP ASSEMBLY - SCRAPPED A COUPLE A FEW YEARS BACK & SAVED THIS FOR THE TWIN TANK JOB


MAKING A SHORT ALLY PIPE FROM FLAT STOCK FOR TANK INLET IN MUDPLATE








MAIN FPH WITH INSULATION SHEATH FOR VEG PIPE TO SOLENOID VALVE





MAIN FEED TO INJECTION PUMP








INLINE SWITCHED SUPPLY FUSE BEHIND GLOVEBOX.


BEHIND RADIO - LOOK FOR BLUE WITH ORANGE TRACER FOR SWITCHED LIVE
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Jowter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 23:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

150 miles was worked out from 20 ish per gallon, reduced volume compared to tank volume to allow for in-tank fph and air space at the top and a safe level in the bottom of the tank to avoid drawing up air, but after yesterday's near 30mpg run I might get nearer 200 miles from a full fill to the next service station (I prefer Asda  Very Happy ) after the low level warning light comes on.
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