The Mitsubishi Pajero Owners Club®

[assassin]

Clearly you have no knowledge of steels as if you did you would realise that everytime you recycle it you get deterioration, clearly you have no knowledge of the recycling processes and the differences between the differing processes used, and clearly you no knowledge of the scams producers such as China have been engaged in, perhaps you should stop reading the diatribes posted on the internet by the environmentalists and stop accepting their warped claims and do your own research as the current figures for world recycling of ferrous metals is at an all time high of 32% (todays figures) and for aluminium it is 60%.

[Google]

[JPB]

Perhaps both of the participants in this fiercely contested debate could take a look at the content found at this link which, like most statistical information, can be interpreted to support any and every point of view. In either case, it would seem that the main qualitative difference between recycled ferrous metals from the earliest civilised (post-Bessemer) times and those found in today's products is in the finish which passes as acceptable in the modern age with its ever higher demand for everything asap, if not sooner! Ask China to manufacture something cheaply finished and of poor quality and they can do it, or ask them to make it to a higher, hand-finished standard and they can do that too. All I know is that the idler pulleys which I recently fitted to the 300TDI engine in one of my project cars came from a well known, UK-based supplier which offered several levels of quality. The proprietor of that supplier's premises explained willingly enough, when nudged a little, that these different price points were defined by the amounts of finishing off needed by the end user in order to fit tensioners kindest to those expensive belts when in service. Three hours of machine polishing, then some honing to avoid their being too shiny, saw my tensioners' pulleys being as well finished as could be, but that time would have cost the LEA more in fees than the difference between poorest and least poor levels of product quality - note that I wouldn't use the term "best" - would have cost me had these parts been for a student's project in one of the authority's workshops. I'm well away from all of that political nonsense!

Pay your money and take your choice, but recycled ferrous metals predate Henry Bessemer's essentially still current process, itself dating back, as we all know, to the mid 1850s, steel having been used BC and recycling coming along as soon as the early users of the material realised that it wasn't an endless resource. That it still isn't is a thing that, regardless of which side of the fence the antagonist occupies, must, IMHO, be taken as fact.

[Crp]

This is turning into something it shouldn't .....disappointing when it starts to get personal

All from a reply to a statement....."much finer finish due to them having higher concentrations of recycled metal in them which polishes over time and use, and creates this glaze"
Always keen to learn, although quite a youngster myself compared to some in the game. Now retired after 65 plus years in the engineering industry starting as a traditional time served toolmaker in the Midlands back in pre computer days when hand made meant exactly that progressing to work worldwide in various fields from precision to light engineering culminating in medium / heavy engineering in the oil and gas industry all of which predominantly hands on.

Some might say I understand a little about the subject and the manufacturing processes involved but I'm never to old to learn, that said the fact remains the glaze referred to is in no way created by the inclusion of recycled metal in the final product
As for the Chinese fully agree they are capable of producing poor quality materials and goods as are many other countries ourselves included, not everything that is made in China is poor quality...they have some of the worlds finest engineers and technicians who can hold their own against the best in the world.  As with everything price is the governing factor.

For me I'm done, not an Internet fan or a great believer in half of the unscientific works environmentalists included that pass for gospel these days  but thanks JPB for the link it was an interesting read to see what the construction / demolition industry is doing recycling wise these days.

This interesting page was forwarded by another old timer....
https://www.tatasteeleurope.com/en/sustainability/steel–for–a–sustainable–future/the-life-cycle-of-steel

Posting as a link is beyond me but copy & pasting above has the desired effect.....more tuition required

[assassin]

Let me make it abundantly clear that this is not personal and I put in two things you don't appear to understand to give you the opportunity to research and understand them and this would explain a lot on its own and I am also a very highly qualified engineer who also served a full 7 year apprenticeship which will give an indicator to my age.

Firstly we have closed loop recycling of metals and this is where a specific grade of metal is known and added to a specific grade of ore or other recycled metals to give a specific grade of finished product, an example would be JLR who recycle their metal used for bodywork as it is all the same grade, this goes into skips and if finally compressed and tagged with its grade and with full traceability and this known value allows it to be mixed with other metals to produce new metals to an exact grade or specification.

Open loop is the most common form of recycling and almost every large scrap dealers in the UK uses this method in which everything is machine sorted into ferrous, non ferrous, and yellow metals and put into large metal munching machines to form metal chips and these are loaded directly into lorries or onto trains and many were shipped to Wales to an old dock used for exporting coal from the UK to other countries, you can already see the problems emerging.

Meanwhile, China used the environmental tosh spouted to us, against us and took over steel production to fill the large void created across Europe by this legislation and decided it was a lucrative and long term market for them and they did this by producing the cheapest rubbish they could using this mash of mixed metal scrap, China had very little metal recycling and scrap steel prices were extremely high to the point of it being cheaper to buy UK and European scrap metals at much lower prices and ship it back to China for recycling and much of it from the UK went through Wales to be loaded onto ships bound for China and realised that with virtually no emissions standards to comply with, and much cheaper overheads, they could undercut other world producers and corner the market for themselves. China put this open loop mixed metals into recycling and smelted it into large blooms and instead of selling it as ungraded, they sold it as graded and put false specifications onto it to get a higher price while still undercutting EU and other continents countries steel manufacturers, and most of these blooms were sold to other Asian countries who took the falsely claimed grades and accepted them without question, even Tata and British Steel bought them in good faith and got caught out.

China was working the oldest scam in the book, LYING and initially a number of concerns were raised about heavy structural, and secondary structural sections as everything from buildings to bridges as problems were developing and emerging, I don't know what you know about structural steel design software, but you can design any heavy structure and put its designed loads into it and the software puts the minimum size steel you should use and also puts the next standard size above this to allow the correct procurement process to take place. Let me explain this simply; if you design a structure using 100 X 100 SHS (box section) the software may say the minimum wall thickness you can use for a specific grade of mils steel is 4.3mm and display this, it will also display the next standard size above this which is 5mm so the drawing will display 100 X 100 X 5mm as the size you require and this is used to draw up the schedule of materials to both cost the job and for procurement to order it.

What China were actually doing was passing off mixed ungraded steels as graded and people bought it in good faith and when this issue was raised they introduced their second scam and this was to produce a small batch of steels solely for testing purposes and supplied them to customers to do their own testing and of course it all met the grades they were purchasing, or so they thought, China were actually still sending the ungraded steel sections out to wholesalers around the world and blooms out to other countries such as Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore and they were having problems you would understand, they all used indexed tooling and they were gettting numerous tooling problems and couldn't understand why.

Meanwhile, in the UK we saw it mainly with Land Rover, but also with other companies supplying aftermarket parts, Brake discs were exploding on Range Rovers, brake cylinders were fracturing on various off road vehicles and shock absorber tubes were rupturing on various vehicles and various companies including Land Rover, Ford, Peugeot and Vauxhall had their spare parts supply chains infiltrated and were caight with their pants down, so evidence? there is so much evidence of this and it is all around but you simply have to look for it.

[dennisrobinson53]

Fitted proper Mitzi belts.
Totally different cinstruction to the TOYO belts.
Problem solved