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The Mitsubishi Pajero Owners ClubŪ The Mitsubishi Pajero, Shogun, Montero, Challenger, Raider and EVO 4x4 Owner's Club
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 16:58 Post subject: No drive |
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My 2004 SWB 3.2 manual Di-D Shogun has developed a very bizarre problem.
Following an uneventfull 14ml trip this morning my car appeared to have partially lost drive. It was like something wasn't quite connecting. It would drive very slowly, all the while emitting a noise like something was slipping. I tried it up and down the transfer box positions with the same result in them all. So I had a coffee and a think.
A friend appeared and attempted to drive the car with the same result as me, and wandered off to consult the internet.
About 45mins later another friend arrived to give me a lift home and asked me to demonstrate the problem. To my astonishment the car was back to driving normally. I asked him to follow me home just incase I didn't make it. I got 500yds and it happened again.
Pal #1 suggested it might be some sort of hydroscopic drive that's low on oil and slipping, which might give symptons such as this, but I thought that unlikely with it being a manual gearbox, and anyway I am unaware of such a drive being on the Shogun.
I'm grasping at straws with this one. Any assistance will be greatly received. |
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 16:58 Post subject: Google Ads keep the POCUK free to join! |
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peteinchad LifeTime Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2013 Posts: 15079 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 17:20 Post subject: |
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Sounds like you need a new clutch. |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 17:58 Post subject: |
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I've been sifting through past posts. Are these cars fitted with a duomass clutch? |
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assassin ********
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 5077 Location: Wherever I Wander To -- Midlands
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Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:16 Post subject: |
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There are no hydroscopic drives as anything hydroscopic absorbs water, you mean hydrostatic, these are not hydrostatic as this uses hydraulics connected to the engine with a squish plate which alters its angle to drive a multi piston hydraulic pump and this connects to hydraulic motors which directly drive the axles through the hydraulic motor being mounted on or in the axles, of part of the gearbox and driving through propellor shafts.
This sounds more like the centre differential not working correctly as they have torque vectoring on them and normally they send two parts of the power to the rear axle and one part to the front axle when driven in 4H on the road, then alter their power to each axle as they need it so they can vary the power to each axle depending on which axle has the most traction.
Silly question, were you driving it on the road with the centre differential locked, this is the position past 4H and before 4L? |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:17 Post subject: |
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You are correct, I meant hydrostatic. Apologies. The friend who came up with that one is a farmer and is used to everything being powered by hydraulics, but I didn't think he was on the right track anyway.
It was in 2H. I haven't had this car long and assumed the 4wd system is the same set up as my old 2.8 Pajero, 2wd high; 4wd high; 4wd low; 4wd low + diff lock, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
I just set off as normal and after 50yds, just after I changed from 1st to 2nd, the car lost drive and emitted a grating noise like something wasn't meshing properly or was slipping. When I say it lost drive I should say mostly as it does creap along at walking speed, forwards and reverse, all the while emitting the noise, but only on tickover.
My initial thought was the clutch, but there was no indication of slippage or anything like that prior to this incident.
My next thought was the transfer box and tried in each of the 4 positions, all with the same result.
Then 45mins later it was alright again and pulling like a train, 500yds on and the problem was back.
I had a Transit years ago that tore the centre out of the clutch plate without prior warning of anything being wrong, but that resulted in no drive at all and a horrendous noise, not like thia at all.
I dismissed a clutch issue as, in my experience, a clutch either works or not. Having said that I've no actual experience of dual mass clutches, only heard horror stories, so don't know if they can have intermittant failures although it seems unlikely. For the same reason (intermittant) it seems unlikely to be something broken in the gearbox or transfer box. |
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assassin ********
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 5077 Location: Wherever I Wander To -- Midlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:43 Post subject: |
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Right, you have given the information I need.
It is set up as 2H, 4H, 4H locked centre diff, 4L so yes you are mistaken.
The grating noise suggests it is switching from 2H to 4H as they default to 4H if you get a fault on the transmission system, and that in switching it is somewhere between 2H and 4H which would explain the grinding noise, they use an electric motor to switch between the two and also they become sticky if not regularly used to keep them loose.
What I would suggest:
Leave the vehicle overnight and switch the ignition on with the window down and listen, if it is between positions and you have tried changing between the two it confuses the system and switching on the ignition should allow you to hear it trying to correct itself, then start the engine.
Put it in 2H and check it engages properly and reverse it backwards a little (3 feet should be fine) and then move back forwards in 1st gear, keep doing this to ensure it is in 2H fully and put it in neutral and switch to 4H and repeat the reverse and forwards several times to check it is fully engaged. |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 16:36 Post subject: |
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Many, many thanks. I'll be back at my workshop tomorrow where the car was left at the weekend and will do as you suggest.
I'll report back. Thanks again. |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 21:45 Post subject: |
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Ok. I tried all that and couldn't detect any noises other than the click of the heater plugs kicking out. Not being able to silence the heater fan didn't help.
Tried the forwards/backwards thing and thought I could feel it locate into 2H when reversing, but only for a second. As it defaults to 4H I thought I should try it in that but it was no use. While I was doing that I kept an eye on the indicator lights and noticed when the lever is in 2H the lights remain iluminated, suggedting it's located although it clearly isn't, and when it's in 4H the lights for the rear wheels stay lit but the ones for the front wheels flash continuously, indicating it's trying to connect.
One other thing I noticed, the rear difflock switch used to be on all the time. It annoyed me that it wouldn't go off, but I actually didn't realise it was a difflock as my Transit has a switch with the same markings and I've never bothered to find out what it's for and thought it unimportant. I don't know what it does on a Transit, but whatever it is I've never needed it! However, since this trouble with the transfer box the difflock switch has now gone off. I assume it won't now go back on because the transfer box isn't engaged in anything.
Is the next stage to remove and test/replace the electric motor and manually work/loosen off the selector? If so can it be done in-situ or is it a gearbox out job? |
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assassin ********
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 5077 Location: Wherever I Wander To -- Midlands
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Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:32 Post subject: |
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Could be major damage, your diff lock only comes in under certain conditions and should automatically disconnect as certain speeds, so once your speed drops it could be re-engaging if you are in 4H and on a road this would cause transmission wind up.
What I would suggest is to get a clean bucket and a pair of the wifes tights, drain the rear diff into the bucket covered with the tights, this should show if the rear diff has suffffered significant damage by the amount of metal shards coming out, replace the oil if it is OK, then repeat with the transmission case and check for large quantities of metal particles; this should give you a good indication. |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 13:20 Post subject: |
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Understood, but I've never run it in 4H, only ever 2H. If the rear dif was actually locked would that not be apparent? I'm not disagreeing, just anxious we don't get sidetracked. I can't say for sure if the diflock switch light did or didn't go out at speed, I don't recall noticing.
If I can get the drive to engage and the diflock light comes back on we can look at that then. No? |
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assassin ********
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 5077 Location: Wherever I Wander To -- Midlands
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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:25 Post subject: |
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It shouldn't but if there is a fault such as a wiring fault, it could, this is why I suggested draining the oils as the debris content can prove or disprove which area is at fault. |
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NJV6 ******
Age: 102 Zodiac: Joined: 20 Feb 2008 Posts: 1355 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:54 Post subject: |
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You would notice the rear diff locked. It can't be locked in 2H or 4H anyway as assissn said. However they don't release at speed and engage at speed. You should only be able to engage it when in 4HLc & 4LLc, basically stationary and then the orange c/d light is solid.
When in 2H, are the front wheel green lights flashing or do they go out (not showing)? Three things need to happen for your car to go into 2H. the transfer case has to disconnect the front driveshaft, the centre diff needs to lock and the front diff also has to disconnect. If you are in 4H and the front diff is still disconnected you get the symptoms you describe, a serious lack of drive. |
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Groundhog **
Age: 69 Zodiac: Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 62 Location: Scottish Borders
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:47 Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input guys.
I'm sure the diff hasn't been locked, that would be very noticable whilst driving.
When in 2H the green lights for the rear wheels are lit and not flashing. When in 4H the lights for the rear wheels stays lit but the lights for the front wheels flash continuosly.
On my old Paj when in 2H the lights would often flash, but no indication of anything wrong whilst driving. When we put it up on a ramp and checked it out it was clear the transmition was working as it should and it was sticking sensors that were the problem.
This is different though. The system on the Di-D seems to be overly complicated and I don't really know how it all works, but it seems to me there is a selector of some sort that moves a gear between 2 and 4 wheel drive and that selector has become stuck between gears.
I'm resisting a rant about the wisdom of ever expanding electrical control on vehicles. |
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Minirob ***
Age: 62 Zodiac: Joined: 09 Mar 2014 Posts: 246 Location: Kent
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 20:32 Post subject: |
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Groundhog wrote: |
Thanks for the input guys.
I'm sure the diff hasn't been locked, that would be very noticable whilst driving.
When in 2H the green lights for the rear wheels are lit and not flashing. When in 4H the lights for the rear wheels stays lit but the lights for the front wheels flash continuosly.
On my old Paj when in 2H the lights would often flash, but no indication of anything wrong whilst driving. When we put it up on a ramp and checked it out it was clear the transmition was working as it should and it was sticking sensors that were the problem.
This is different though. The system on the Di-D seems to be overly complicated and I don't really know how it all works, but it seems to me there is a selector of some sort that moves a gear between 2 and 4 wheel drive and that selector has become stuck between gears.
I'm resisting a rant about the wisdom of ever expanding electrical control on vehicles. |
Hmm, maybe. Weve just bought a new Volvo XC40. Electric Hand brake, fly by wire gear selection etc, etc. No engine oil dip stick and the auto gearbox is sealed for life. |
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assassin ********
Age: 64 Zodiac: Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 5077 Location: Wherever I Wander To -- Midlands
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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:46 Post subject: |
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NJV6 wrote: |
You would notice the rear diff locked. It can't be locked in 2H or 4H anyway as assissn said. However they don't release at speed and engage at speed. You should only be able to engage it when in 4HLc & 4LLc, basically stationary and then the orange c/d light is solid.
When in 2H, are the front wheel green lights flashing or do they go out (not showing)? Three things need to happen for your car to go into 2H. the transfer case has to disconnect the front driveshaft, the centre diff needs to lock and the front diff also has to disconnect. If you are in 4H and the front diff is still disconnected you get the symptoms you describe, a serious lack of drive. |
It does happen, not very often, and it is usually down to a wiring fault which brings the diff lock in at speeds below about 6MPH. |
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