The Mitsubishi Pajero Owners Club®

[daddy2coull]

hi there,

did you manage to get to the magic 70% SVO? i've just mixed up around 60% into my tank and i have a 130 mile round trip tomorrow. FINGERS CROSSED !!!!!

[Google]

[GeoffL]

Great thread, Wilkesy. I'm watching with much interest.

[Wilkesy]

Geoff

Very good post, if the content itself is a little disappointing.

What I find amusing with this SVO tax stuff, is that every few days I change my mind about the amount of tax payable. Just when I think that I found sufficient proof that the lower rate tax is payable (i.e. 27 pence per litre) somebody comes along with proof that the higher rate is payable - then a few days later I change my mind again because of further proof.

Just goes to show that this if one very grey area - no wonder so many drivers are avoiding paying the relevant tax on vegetable oil - even those that want to pay aren't sure how much should be paid

Interstingly Goat Industries, an often quoted company dealing with Biodiesel, say that some of their members who are using SVO have had visits from C&E after completing Form EX 103 - HOWEVER, because natural SVO is an organic acid ester with no suplhur and only a trace of glycerine, it actually fits within the ester / sulphur percentages mentioned by the C&E. The result has been that the C&E inspectors have confirmed with them that the lower rate of duty is payable on vegetable oil, regardless of whether this is waste veggie oil, SVO, or veggie oil that has been processed into biodiesel.


There site makes intersting reading - a quote is shown below (I would make it a proper forum quote but don't know how ) : -

QUOTE FROM WWW.VEGETABLEOILDIESEL.CO.UK ...

[floyd]

Well i finally did it due to extreme curiosity & following all your postings . Went to our local cash n carry yesterday & purchased a 20 litre drum of vegetable oil at £9.49 non VAT'able which worked out at 47.45p per litre. Then i went to the local petrol station & put in 20.02 litres of diesel at £19.00. However i probably had about 15 litres in the motor already, after 5 minutes of holding a 20 litre drum & the missus holding the funnel i got all excited & had to take the motor out straight away.... Smoother, slightly better response & no smoke. It started at 5.30 this morning like a dream too.

Too good to be true, i think so

[Wilkesy]

Floyd - congratulations, as you say it certainly appears to be too good to be true. There must be a lot of people reading this thread thinking "so what, I've been running on vegetable oil for years". To date I can't find anything bad to say about it - better all round.

Mungodog - have to agree totally, for whatever reason it seems to be that purchasing veggie oil in bulk works out more expensive than buying individually. I did actually read somewhere that 1 litre bottles of veg oil are on eof the things that supermarkets sell as a loss-leader to attract customers - don't know whether there is any truth in it, but it appears so.

Personally the best I have found so far is buying in 3 litre containers.

However, within the next week or so I fully intend collecting used oil from the local restaurant, filtering it by removing the water and glycerine I thin it is - then filtering it to remove any foreign objects (chips etc.) and using it. Be interesting to see how easy it is and whether or not it works as well as SVO - have to do my research first. But, if i can do this and get veggie oil for maybe 10 pence per litre, I'll be very happy.

Wilkesy.

[seekay]

I called the Customs & excise today & I will say they were very pleasant to deal with on the phone, the first lady I spoke to really just wanted to send out information leaflets etc but as I argued the case for using Tesco rape seed oil I did get the feeling she needed to get rid of me, she explained to me that they are only supposed to talk for a given amount of time to people calling the department,she tried to offer the leaflets etc again but I explained to her that I had researched this issue for quite a time & in the end she passed me over to their technical department, again the lady was very polite & friendly but after I explained that i wanted to put new Tesco rape seed oil in my car & use it as a fuel also mentioned the green issues better for the environment renewable fuel but she said that it would definatly be taxed at the higher rate 47p as it was up to me to prove that it qualified for the lower duty ie 96 something % ester & under.0005 something % sulphur she also said that she is getting an increasing amount of enquires about this subject & it has prompted regular meetings at the C & E to keep the staff updated on what is allowed & what is not, she would not budge on the issue of Tesco rape seed oil & any other make unless I proved it met the levels of ester & sulphur, one thing that does worry me slightly is that it seems that quite a lot of people are only paying the 27p rate they are informing C & E what they use each month & pay the 27p litre charge, I have a feeling that before long someone is going to start checking receipts etc & when it is found that the user is buying new veggie oil from Tesco Sainsbury's wherever the records are going to be dug out & all those people who thought they were doing the right thing are going to get a bill for all the litres they have used not at 27p but revised to 47p & if you have been using it for a couple of years it could be quite a substantial amount of tax owing. At the end of the day if you are getting away with the 27p rate because of the statement you made to them at the time but then it is proved you were maybe not entirely truthfull things will happen (car insurance is another area, SORRY SIR YOU ARE NOT INSURED AS YOU DID NOT TELL US ABOUT THE SPEEDING CONVICTION YOU HAD which was withheld to get a cheaper quote) I just hope I'm wrong but with the C & E & the Government involved starting to lose revenue this is going to stir up a Hornets nest. I personally don't know what to do now the only way forward for me is to have the oil tested & if it meets the requirements then I could go back & have another go but I would probably need a professional report to back up what i'm saying, do we have any chemist type people on this forum who could or knows someone who can carry out the testing.

[Wilkesy]

Good morning all.

So my Pajero continues to run beautifully on a 50 / 50 mix (actually a 60/40 mix over the last week with 60% being veggie oil).

Quite strange yesterday because a Pajero owner (not a club member) came over to me in a car park and asked if I was running veggie oil - he said he had noticed the smell. He had a 2.8 SWB and said he had been running on a 70/30 (70% veggie) for over 2 years and had never had any problems. I asked him what rate of duty he was paying but clearly he isn't.

Customs and Excise actually wrote to me yesterday following my submission of form EX 103 and said that if I was intending to pay the lower rate of duty then I would have to prove that every single batch of oil I used met the bio-diesel specifications. They also said that duty on bio-diesel is payable on purchase, not when it is used. This is clearly not what I have been told by other C&E departments.

They also said that if I couldn't prove it met bio-diesel standards, they would consider it to be fuel substitute and duty would be payable at the rate of 47p per litre.

What I found amusing was that whilst this info clearly contradicted the other information I have been given, and I know of a veg oil user that has been paying the lower rate duty band without complaint, the letter from C&E was clearly trying to make life difficult - their last paragraph said..

"if I do not receive a reply within the 10 working days I will assume that you no longer wish proceed with your application"

Now this is pathetic when you consider that they also said that, if I was using bio-diesel, I needed to provide proof of where I was buying the ingredients, who from, what the cost was, how many litres I was expecting to manufacture, how it was being tested, written proof of the testers capabilities, and so on and so forth. In short they were asking for so much information that I would never have been able to get it back to them within 10 days anyway.

My opinion - C&E are unsure as to what the current situation is and are simply trying to make the process so difficult that people give up.

So what am I going to do - well one thing I wont do is stop using veggie oil - it is too good for my pocket and too good for my Paj. So I think in the short term I will assume that the HIGHER rate of duty is payable and at the end of every month I will send of a report stating what litres I have used and pay the relevant amount of duty.

Importantly C&E tell me that duty on non bio-diesel is payable at the end of every month and that duty does not become payable until the oil has been used by the vehicle. So if i get stopped by the police I am totally legal providing that my report for that month shows veggie oil usage.

Quite frustrating really, but then did anybody really expect this Government to be anything but frustrating. If it was any other Government in Europe they would be promoting the use of vegetable oil as a sustainable, eco-firendly, alternative fuel - but in the UK tax is king.

Congratulations to all those who have tried veggie oil, I hope your experiences were the same as mine - smoother, quieter and definately cheaper

Wilkesy

[The Apache]

A big round of applause to Wilkesy please everybody.

Thanks Wilkesy for putting the time in on this one. It's just such a shame that the tax side has become a pain in butt, if it was straight forward and and a reasonable rate, everybody would use svo, now knowing that running on 25% to 50% is perfectly ok, cleaner emissions, improved performance etc. As for the long term effects, that also seems not to be a problem.

Other than greed, what other reason should the government want to charge 47ppl on such an environmentally friendly alternative to diesel


I'm going to carry on using svo and will probably start on wvo when i've got the time to put into it.

[seekay]

Well done Wilkesy good informative reading, like you I feel that C & E are unsure of what to do, but one thing is sure that if enough people are ringing them they will have to take action to sort out the differing answers we all seem to be getting, I think I will still register & use some veggie oil as although its not really helping my pocket it is helping the environment & maybe my Pajero, its just a shame that C & E (told what to do by the government) throw all sorts of obsticles in the way of people wanting to try a more environmently friendly fuel, if the government was really interested in green issues they could have the oil checked & a list drawn up of the contents of the individual veggie oils, yes it would cost a couple of quid but as a taxpayer I would ultimatley pay for the list anyway, its down to loss in revenue & the powers that be, won't have that. so boys & girls carry on the way we always have living in rip of Britain.

[beektor]

Wilkesy,

thanks so much for the info.
i'll try using veg oil maybe next month.

pardon my ignorance though, but aren't the veg oil (and everything else sold in the supermarkets) already taxed?

[vipar]

Wilksey many thanks for all the time and effort you have put in on behalf of the members. I think we should all keep quite now and leave no trace of this thread. just PM each other when a Newbie asks. Im on 50/50 from now on.

[Bilko]

According to most of the bio-fuel websites i've checked out veg oil does qualify as a bio-diesel quality fuel ( but is not bio-diesel).Apparently the veg oil must not contain more then 0.005% sulphur by weight and must be 96.5% ester content by weight and veg oil (new & used) qualifies on both counts So i'm intending to pay 27.1p tax per ltr.
Great post Wilkesy , you've inspired me to give it a go.
How long did it take to get your reply from HMC&E
I sent my EX103 off last week.

ATB
Bilko

[Wilkesy]

So, with the Paj running beautifully the veggie oil certainly works, but...

Today my girlfriend had to go out in the Paj - only travelled 20 miles or so, but when she came home she said "I think there is something wrong with the car - the engines gone really noisy and is rattling".

So I had to explain the her that yesterday when I put fuel in - the supermarket had sold out of veggie oil so I had to put £20 of pure diesel in

There is no doubt - the Paj is definately noisier when running on diesel alone.

At least now she believes me that veggie oil is good.

[Wilkesy]

Shed

Most people tend to run a 50/50 mix without any trouble whatsoever.

PS. Don't forget the duty

[Wilkesy]

Batfink

Before you spend money getting anything tested to see if it conforms with bio-diesel requirements - check with Customs and Excise.

They told me that EVERY SINGLE BATCH had to be checked before use. When I explained that I would be buying it in 3 litre bottles, they said that every single batch needed testing because the qaulity can differ from batch to batch - therefore every single bottle needed testing.

Would have argued with them, but I was laughing too much.